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Saturday, October 11. 2008Response to Uncle Skeptic on Dawkins
In the comments section of my last post on a typical silly argument by Richard Dawkins against religious belief, Uncle Skeptic said:
Allowing for some literary license with regard to generality and geography, the Dawkins quote is right on. If we can’t, in general, “judge an individual’s justification for her beliefs by the cultural soup from which those beliefs arise”, then how do you explain the overwhelming correlation between religion and geography? If you look at the geographical distribution of religions, it’s obvious that the vast majority of religious people do, in fact, acquire their religion based on the prevailing cultural soup.A few points here. First, you are confusing sociological questions with epistemological questions. There are simple sociological reasons why we find high levels of religious uniformity among entire cultures, nations, and races: such uniformity allows for social cohesion, national identity, and a shared set of values. That people often adopt the beliefs of those around them is not new or surprising. Suppose 99% of the people of a culture believe the same thing on a particular religious subject - say, that humans are made in the image of God - and they believe simply because that's what their parents or their culture told them. This fact has exactly zero bearing on whether people actually are made in the image of God or not. As for me, if I'm trying to determine for myself what my view on human nature is, sociological facts about how and why this belief is widely held in my culture are entirely irrelevant. What only matters is whether I have good reasons for accepting it or not, and that is an epistemological question that is independent of sociological ones. If I have a suspicion that I have been duped or "indoctrinated" either for or against this belief, I need only to investigate the matter for myself. Just because a belief is held widely in one particular culture does not automatically make it wrong. Second, you have ignored my main argument almost entirely. My argument was that - were people to accept Dawkins' epistemic claim here - it would affect not just their religious beliefs negatively but a whole host of other non-religious beliefs as well. You believe that many religious adherents' beliefs are unjustified because they receive them from authorities in their culture. My argument is that this is part of human nature. People just do this, on just about every topic imaginable. Do you think that political beliefs or aesthetic beliefs or moral beliefs are somehow immune from this syndrome? Do you think there isn't a large percentage of liberal Democrats who are liberal Democrats just because there parents taught them to be Democrats? Or are you under the impression that, aside from religion, people are naturally rational who think through every one of their beliefs carefully and logically and come to a justified conclusion? This is nothing more than special pleading against religion. It's a poor attempt at twisting a simple truism ("Don't believe something just because everyone around you believes it!") into a cudgel with which to bash religion. Third, your and Dawkins' argument is a nice example of the genetic fallacy. Your attempted move from the premise ("All or a majority of religious people have beliefs which are unjustified because they received those beliefs from their parents or culture") to your conclusion ("No religion is true!") is logically invalid. If I ever write a textbook on logic, I might use this as an example of an egregious non sequitur. If I haven't characterized your premise or conclusion accurately, feel free to correct me. Fourth, I'm not sure that a religious believer isn't at least partially justified by accepting his religious beliefs on the basis of a proper authority in his culture. Suppose I have someone in my life who I think is particularly perceptive, wise, virtuous, rational, etc., and suppose that person tells me to believe in Christianity. I trust this person completely. Why am I irrational if I put this person's authority in the plank of the foundation for my religious beliefs? I grant that it wouldn't be very rational to rely on such authority alone, but to tell you the truth I don't know a single Christian who does this. The oft-repeated skeptical claim that religious people believe on authority alone just isn't right. Some of them do, and some religions lend themselves more to groundless belief than others. So what? Some people accept atheism solely based on the authority of their parents or teachers as well. Surely, you don’t think it’s just a coincidence that nearly everyone in Arkansas decided to become Christians based on cold logic and reason while nearly everyone in Afghanistan decided to become Muslim based on cold logic and reason. A visit to any Sunday school or Madrasah will confirm that the children in that particular cultural soup are being heavily indoctrinated in the preferred religion. “Reason and logic”, carefully selected and contrived, are added later to reinforce and justify the indoctrinees after they’ve been indelibly pre-conditioned to believe only what supports their indoctrination.Wow! You must have visited every Sunday School and Madrasah in the world in order to come to that conclusion. How else would you be able to boldly claim that all of them are guilty of this kind of indoctrination? Plus, "indoctrination" is an emotionally-charged word. It is also ambiguous. Parents all over the world teach their children what they think is right regarding morality, religion, politics, etc. Some of them actually do indoctrinate their children by just telling them to believe in the absence of good reasons for believing. Others can make a very strong case for their beliefs and pass this on to their children. It's the same with Sunday Schools. I'm not sure how either of these facts are supposed to make a dent in the religious believers' justification for his beliefs. As Christians, the apostle Peter commands us to give an apologia for the hope we have anyway, so if Second Baptist Church down the street is trying to force Christianity down kids' throats without presenting the case for the Christian worldview, they're in sin. Oh and by the way, I'm sure atheist parents never indoctrinate their kids, do they? Of course none of this is absolute, which as far as I can tell, is your only objection to the Dawkin’s quote and the purpose of the variations you gave on that quote. I’ll grant you that, but I’m sure Dawkins didn’t mean it to be absolute. He knows there are exceptions. For instance.…some kids don’t get much or any indoctrination, and some kids who do, break free and reason their way to a religious position different than their parents. (e.g. Cat Stevens, Tony Alamo, Charles Darwin, G.I. Boyette) Still others may reason their way to a position that is very much like the indoctrination they received from their parents. Although you didn’t say so, I gather you place yourself in this last category. If so, please feel “justified” to express your “Reason A, Reason B, Reason C and so forth. I’m anxious to hear them. In the meantime, Dawkins rules!Yes, that was my point. But I don't think Dawkins would allow for exceptions. His policy is to give no quarter to religion, even if he has to make bad arguments to keep the policy intact. Further, it seems your argument only works if you accept the conclusion as one of the premises. If you are convinced from the outset that all religion is bunkum and that there is no way any religious worldview can ever be justified by evidence or argumentation, then of course you will think that every instance of religious teaching is "indoctrination." It's fine to think that way, but not to use that conclusion as a premise against the theist! That kind of argument (where the conclusion is a premise) may be appropriate for a meeting of the local skeptic's society, but that bird won't fly on this blog. You will have to earn your conclusions here. You can't just begin with your conclusions as premises and expect me (or any other Christian, for that matter) to be convinced by your argument. I'm sure somewhere there is a Christian apologetics society where the members sit around and complain that atheist or skeptical parents and teachers are "indoctrinating" their children with atheism. This is a reasonable opinion for them to share among themselves since they are each already convinced that there can never be a justified case for atheism that a parent or teacher may pass on to their child. But if one of them were to take that opinion and use it as a premise in a debate with an atheist, he would be laughed off the stage. And I do place myself in the category you mention, although I wasn't actually converted until age 19. My parents were Christians, and so am I. That doesn't bother me in the least, and I don't think it should. If I suspected that they had somehow tricked me and I became convinced through other means that Christianity was false, then I would abandon my beliefs. But I don't, and I didn't, so I won't. I'm thankful they taught Christian beliefs to me, since now more than ever I see them to be true. Everyone has some moral, religious, aesthetic, or political beliefs they learned from their parents, including you. Tell me: have you identified those beliefs and, if so, do they keep you up at night worrying that those beliefs might not be justified because you learned them from your parents? Of course not. It's true that one isn't justified in accepting a belief just because they learned it from their parents, but the converse is also true: one isn't justified in rejecting a belief just because they learned it from their parents or culture either. On the subject of why I accept Christianity, I don't have much time to give a detailed account here, but I'll give the short version. I accept the Christian worldview because it provides the best explanatory framework over the range of human experience. My beliefs thus rest on the foundation of a cumulative case for Christianity. There are many good evidences and arguments for God's existence, for the historicity of the Gospels, for the objective nature of moral facts, etc. that, when paired with my own religious experiences and the historical experience of my religious community, sets the Christian worldview well above all others in terms of explanatory power over the world. I do not claim that there are any conclusive arguments for Christianity (i. e. it can not be proven with Cartesian certainty), but that isn't a problem. I don't have conclusive arguments against solipsism, or against the claim that I am a brain in a vat, or for the claim that other minds like mine exist, or whatever. There are good arguments for all these things, just like there are good arguments for God's existence, but none that are fool-proof. Hence I put more stock in the coherence and explanatory power of my worldview than its proof status, although I do not discount evidence or good arguments for Christianity. There are many good and valuable evidences of this sort, but none that are likely to convince a committed skeptic like you. It takes a good old, road to Damascus, authentic God-encounter to do that. As for Dawkins, he is a good scientist but a poor philosopher. He is too ignorant to even recognize how his own philosophical assumptions affect his reasoning. His recent books have, unfortunately, influenced a whole new generation of atheists who think belligerency, bluster, and sloppy argumentation are the way to defeat religious belief. For my money, I'd rather read John Mackie, Michael Martin, or Quentin Smith. Those guys actually have arguments that cause me to wrestle with some of my beliefs. Dawkins is a hack who attacks only the weakest versions of theism and then proclaims himself the victor. Such straw-man argumentation may be good enough for the growing community of atheist agitators, but not for me. If you want to see what I'm talking about, read the posts in my Contra Dawkins section of this blog. I've done quite a bit of work on him that you may find interesting. As to your other comments on my post about Chesterton, I hope to be able to address those soon.
Posted by Brian Trapp
in Philosophy, Apologetics, Religion, Philosophy of Religion, Contra Dawkins
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"I accept the Christian worldview because it provides the best explanatory framework over the range of human experience."
Can you say this unless you have immersed yourself in the other frameworks as deeply as you have in Christianity? Not in the least bit. The explanatory power of any worldview can be clearly seen without totally emersing yourself into any particular worldview.
Matt, Your contention that “the explanatory power of any worldview can be clearly seen without totally emersing [sic] yourself into any particular worldview” is true (in a very general way) if, and ONLY IF you haven’t already immersed yourself in one of them (for instance Christianity in one of its 1400 forms). Once you’ve immersed yourself in one of them, as Brian has done, you’re very likely to be biased, prejudiced and lacking objectivity toward all others. Further, if you have immersed yourself in one of them, then for a fair comparison, you’ve got to immerse yourself in all of them and hope the biases will cancel out, allowing you to decide which one is “best.” Therefore Valerie Tarico is right to challenge Brian. Maybe Brian will eventually tell us more about “the explanatory power over the range of human experience” of the Christian worldview so we can see why he thinks it’s the best.
Interesting thoughts. I find in response to the "you need a God-encounter" that for a person committed to one religion that the serious and compassionate study of another religion (in my case Mormonism) turns up much that is self-revealing. I characterize it as believe-ism vs mature faith - Uncle Skeptic's basic assertion here is against believe-ism. Whereas believe-ism is that body of belief that is received with little questioning from parents, peers, or culture, mature fat faith is that hard-won set of beliefs that comes through examination of the facts, from self-examination,and through examination of their liveability in the marketplace and in relationships. Serious study of another belief set finds me thinking "how can they be so gulllible...." and moving to "am I not exactly like that?" And that, my friends, is a move to maturity.
I think both of you give little thought to the pervasiveness of youth culture as a force toward skepticism. And what about the Hindu families here in Alabama who have solidly Hindu kids? Where does Uncle categorize them? Typo - not fat faith. I was working on a teeny keyboard.
I thought ''fat faith' was some deep term used in such intellectually astute philosophy discussions...
Bill, I think what you call believe-ism is what I call indoctrination. Your claim that mature faith comes “through examination of the facts, self-examination and examination of their liveability in the marketplace and in relationships” is just childhood indoctrinated beliefs reinforced with careful selection of only the right facts, exclusion of the awkward ones, circular reasoning, creative explanations for inconvenient details, suspension of objectivity as needed, and appeals to “God can do anything” explanations when all else fails. If I’ve missed the target here, tell me what specific facts you’re referring to and something about your examinations of self, liveability and relationship and how they differ between yourself and the Mormons you studied.
Please expand on how the pervasiveness of youth culture acts toward skepticism and how that impacts the discussion at hand. I categorize the Hindus in Alabama like Hindus everywhere (or any other religionists, for that matter) indoctrinated in certain religious beliefs in youth and reinforced in those beliefs all through adulthood. Most important—best barbeque I’ve ever had. . .Dickies. Is there one in Florence? Brian, I looked up the Dawkins’ quote you cited and he clearly directed it to people who, “ . .:feel trapped in the religion of your upbringing. . .” In this specific context I’m even more convinced he’s making a very valid point. Here are my responses to your last blog.
• Just what sociological questions do you think I’m confusing with what epistemological questions? It seems to me that a whole lot of what passes for “knowledge” in any society is acquired directly from the indoctrination processes in that society—especially subjective knowledge like politics, dress, mores, aesthetics, and religion. The “good reasons” you refer to are provided by the society and therefore are not independent of society. (e.g., Mormons have “good reasons” for wearing their holy underpants. It’s their epistemological basis for doing so.) I won’t go so far as to say all knowledge short of science and math is society-based, but it’s close. If you’re talking about some sort of “absolute truths” here, tell me what you think they are and how you know them. • I’m sorry that I ignored your argument almost entirely; I didn’t know what it was. But now that you’ve stated it, I’m confused. First of all, what are you taking as Dawkins’ epistemic claim? If you’re saying his claim is the same as what you say I believe, (viz. “that many religious adherents’ beliefs are unjustified because they receive them from authorities in their culture.”) . You’re in error. He’s not claiming that and neither am I. Neither of us has said that. Further, I think we would both answer “no” to all your questions about whether people are immune to acquiring various other beliefs from cultural indoctrination and so should summarily reject them as unjustified. I contend that all beliefs have to be evaluated on their merits, not their source. • You have mischaracterized Dawkins’ and my argument. You have stated both the premise and the conclusion wrong. The correct premise is: “Most religious people received childhood indoctrination in their parents’ religion”—period! The correct conclusion is: “It works. Almost every religious person follows in the religion of their parents as evidenced by geographical distribution. Cold logic and reason apparently are not big factors.” No reference was made to whether such indoctrinations reflect reality, whether any religions are true or false, or whether religious or other beliefs so acquired should be rejected simply because they were the subjects of childhood indoctrination. • It may not be irrational to put a “person’s authority in the plank of the foundation” of your religious beliefs if you deemed that person to be perceptive, wise, virtuous or rational. However, since there are numerous people with these qualities among the advocates for any religion you can name, how do you know which to believe? Could it be that you gravitate to the ones consistent with your childhood indoctrination? How many people in Arkansas even get a chance to be influenced by say, a Hindu? Or make the effort to study Islam? One of the unfortunate consequences of childhood indoctrination is, if it’s done cleverly and thoroughly, the kids may never know if they were duped because their ability to reason objectively outside the box may be forever handicapped. • I’ll stick to my assessment that religious indoctrination is clearly a major purpose of Sunday schools. I haven’t been to all Sunday schools, but I’ve been to a lot of them and I’ve never seen any that didn’t heavily proselytize the kids—lots of colorful models of Noah’s ark and the animals, cutouts of angels, candy with religious stuff printed on the wrapper, groups of tykes singing praise songs, pageants and plays, and memorizing feel-good Bible verses. It’s definitely playtime with a purpose. And yes, atheist parents probably do indoctrinate their kids like everyone else. And no, none of this is relevant to the truthfulness of anyone’s beliefs, but it is relevant to the source. • I’m not sure if you’re talking about Dawkins’ or me or both, but neither of us has to make bad arguments to keep this case intact. Neither Dawkins nor I started out thinking religion was bunkum. Dawkins’ bio says he started out in the Anglican faith, began doubting about age nine, reconverted later based on the “Design Argument”, then fell out permanently after becoming disillusioned with the Church of England and learning about evolution which made supernatural design unnecessary in his mind. My experience is roughly similar. In any case, I think we all agree that the validity of religion must come from an objective evaluation of it, not the indoctrination of the believers. • Therefore Brian, I look forward to your expanded description of: Christianity’s explanatory framework, good evidences and arguments for God’s existence (e.g., the good ol’ ontological argument perhaps?); historicity of the Bible; objective nature of moral facts; your own religious experiences; coherence of your world view, authentic God-encounters, and my personal favorite, whether you’re a fundamentalist. I hope you’ll use my definition, not Plantinga’s which, as you remember, was predicated on some sort of “sumbitch” argument—but either one would be better than nothing. • What is the essence of the arguments by Mackie, Martin, and Smith that caused you to wrestle with some of your beliefs? • Did you get the e-mail I sent you with J.C. Grayling’s comments? • This is a lot of blogging over a peripheral subject. When are we going to get to meatier items like reasons for being a Christian (or whatever) and discussions of fundamentalism? These are things I’m hoping to understand better if possible. Maybe you could respond to my June ’08 comments and questions about your website where you talked about the “crystal clear waters of orthodoxy” among other things. Dear Uncle..My husband is living proof that the childhood indoctrination theory as an explanation (or excuse?) for why people choose Christianity is not a totally valid one. Bob had no teaching at all..he grew up in a totally non-religious home, and had NO indoctrination, religious or otherwise (except to honor his Serbian roots). He was not raised in church, nor was he exposed to basic Christian teaching. His faith came to him by 'revelation', that 'good old fashioned God encounter" Brian was talking about in his earlier post to you. It was not cold logic, reason, or an intellectual decision...it was a supernatural revelation to a young man that resulted in a radical transformation from the inside out. One day he was one person...the next day he was someone different, a gentler and kinder version of himself with a different heart. There are many Christians who have this same testimony...not raised at all in a Christian environment, but changed by the supernatural power of the gospel when they embraced it in faith.
Both Brian and I agree that not every religious person comes to their belief system through childhood indoctrination. But of all the methods for coming to a belief system, cold reason and rational thought is probably the best--and “revelation” or “good old fashioned God encounter” is probably the worst. People have drowned their children based on “good old fashioned God encounters.” The scum that flew airplanes into the World Trade Center did so based on GOFGE’s. GOFGE’s come in all sizes and shapes and in all religions and cults. Neurologists can induce GOFGE’s by stimulating certain areas of the brain with electrodes or chemicals. This makes me very skeptical of GOFGE’s as anything but delusions of physiological origin. (Sort of specialized intense day dreams) I acknowledge that such experiences can be life-changing (as can other experiences like LSD trips) but that certainly doesn’t make them supernatural in origin.
Revelation and 'GOFGE" are very easily dismissed by someone who has never had one. Have you ever tried to explain color to someone who has been blind from birth? No amount of cold logic and reason will ever help that blind man to grasp the infinite variety, wonder, and reality of color. He is forever locked in his darkness, feeling and hearing his way to a limited reality that only his hands and ears can discern, possible rejecting all other reality that falls out of the realm of his limited capacities and experience. The only way for him to appreciate and UNDERSTAND color is for a miracle of medicine or divine intervention that will allow him to SEE. Your "cold logic and intellectual reason" can never eliminate my GOFGE, or what it did to forever change my life; it does nothing to change the effect it has made in my life and the life of all true believers. Things that are spiritually discerned are forever foolishness and gibberish to the carnal mind. That is no surprise;the Bible said this long, long ago...and it is still true today.
Our family is lucky enough to call Uncle Skeptic and his wife our good friends. We often talk about the fact that Uncle Skeptic is one of the most spiritual people we know, but not in the narrow definition of "spiritual" set forth by fundamentalists. He is altruistic and widely respected in the community. "Limited capacities" do not describe the Uncle Skeptic we know and admire. Brian is lucky to have an Uncle who encourages him to think outside his comfort zone.
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AlsoAnonymous
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2008-11-18 09:58
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I don't doubt that GOFGE's may be intense, life-changing and hard to explain to someone who hasn't had one. But that certainly doesn’t mean they’re supernatural. Delusions of all sort can have these characteristics and be the result of non-supernatural sources such as fasting, intense emotion, stress, lack of sleep, meditation, loud music, etc. Do you have any evidence that GOFGE’s are supernatural or just that they are intense and difficult to explain? Do you know if anyone ever levitated or changed into a bird or displayed x-ray vision or such?
I think the evidence such as it is (wide variation of GOFGE's in all religions and cults, tragic consequences of some GOFGE's and generation of GOFGE's by neurological electrical or chemical stimulation) clearly points to a physiological origin which was the gist of my previous comments. So I don't see how your analogy of trying to explain color to a person blind from birth addresses the question of whether GOFGE's are physiological or supernatural. Also I think your analogy underestimates blind people when you condemn them to a "limited reality" and say they are "possible [sic] rejecting all other reality that falls out of the realm of his limited capabilities and experience." I understand that blind people often develop enhanced hearing, touch, awareness, and smell capabilities that exceed those of sighted people. If so, one could make the case that sighted people have limited capabilities in these areas and therefore have "a limited reality." I don't doubt for a second that many blind people have a much better grasp on reality than many sighted people--especially sighted people who imagine things that aren't there, like invisible sky friends. *******"You have stated both the premise and the conclusion wrong. The correct premise is: “Most religious people received childhood indoctrination in their parents’ religion”—period! The correct conclusion is: “It works. Almost every religious person follows in the religion of their parents as evidenced by geographical distribution. Cold logic and reason apparently are not big factors.” No reference was made to whether such indoctrinations reflect reality, whether any religions are true or false, or whether religious or other beliefs so acquired should be rejected simply because they were the subjects of childhood indoctrination."*****
--hmmm....This doesn't sound right at all. It smells of back-peddling. If none of this Dawkins-style rhetoric clearly intended to pass as a positive argument offered against belief in God found in a book titled "The God Delusion" is, in fact, NOT intended to undermine the rationality of religious belief, nor undermine its claim to truth --then what on earth is the purpose?? Emotional masturbation for angry atheists? If Dawkins' conclusion is, in fact, as harmless as claiming "People follow in the religious footsteps of their parents and culture due (either in whole or in part) to social conditioning" then the argument as a whole is analytically (and trivially) true, since it follows by definition from the phenomenon of cultural instruction as a premise. So what? These points might be sociologically interesting, but have no consequences whatsoever for the questions of Justification and Truth of each of these religious claims. I find it strange you think that Dawkins would make such a benign anthropological observation about cultural patterns in a book titled "The God Delusion." But it is understandable someone might conjecture this, since Dawkins poorly-articulated quasi-arguments all lack the clarity and precision expected of carefully constructed arguments with clearly defined premises and a conclusion. It is much more reasonable in the context of his personality and militant anger to suppose Dawkins means by "indoctrination" the conclusion that, "Most religious people are brainwashed," hence, unjustified, unwarranted, or credulous for holding the beliefs that they do by flaunting their epistemic duties to suspend belief before the demands of right reason. But in that case, his argument is grossly invalid, nor is it inductively well-supported. For Dawkins in his amateurish way fails to understand the phenomenon of rationally justified FALSE belief. Justification and truth are not the same, and don't always correspond. Many can and do hold unjustified, but true, beliefs, and justified but false beliefs. Just look at the history of disagreements in science, not to mention all of the theories thus far abandoned! For instance: Steady State Theory, Luminiferous Ether, Newtonian Theory of Gravity, Caloric Theory of Heat, Bohr's Atomic Theory, etc, etc. Was mass consensus relative to time-periods evidence that the scientists of old (and perhaps even today) brainwashed by the scientific academy within which they found themselves at the time, or were their beliefs still nevertheless justified, even though false (or not obviously true)? In their favor, I am inclined to opt for the latter explanation. Strong correlations between religion and geography along with a lack of spatial consensus, or between scientific theory and time period with lack of temporal consensus, lend no (perhaps very little) support for the hypothesis of brainwashing over the hypothesis of rationally justified belief. For to conjecture widespread "brainwashing" is to presuppose the very thing Dawkins is trying to argue against, namely, the rationality of religious belief. My question for Dawkins is: "What is appropriately justified, or warranted, belief"?....an epistemic question I've never heard him address in spite of his consistent appeal to the strictly empiricist criterion of justification--which is very probably false as the past 50 years work in philosophical epistemology has shown. Very interesting read indeed...
AlsoAnonymous.. How easily and cavalierly you paint as 'fundamentalists' others who may differ from yours or Uncle's worldview!!!
If you read my comments IN CONTEXT, "limited capacities" clearly was not a slam, but only a statement describing, in my analogy, someone who is BLIND. Would you not admit that a blind person has limited capacities because they cannot SEE? No fault of their own or condemnation for being blind. The simple point I was making is: they cannot see or understand the concept of 'color' UNLESS they have a radical miracle. It is not within their ability to do so, no matter how much they study about color in braille! Same with the famous GOFGE that he tries do dismiss in his previous argument. Uncle Skeptic attempts to dismiss the "God encounter" by comparing it to things he has read about mystical and magical experiences of other religions, shamans, drug induced highs, etc. ...he's studying color in BRAILLE! And, just like the blind man, nothing will enable him to 'see' short of a miracle...no amount of logic, argument, 'reason', etc. There is no DOUBT we are talking wonderful people....people we love more than life, even though our world views are radically different. Our history goes back 40-50 years! SO.. in MY view, Uncle Skeptic is darn lucky to have a nephew like Brian who CARES ENOUGH, as a Christian and an astute and brilliant student of Philsophy, to take the time (when he is overwhelmed with PHD dissertation, a full time job, and a growing family)to patiently and kindly answer his logically weak arguments. My response to your “blind people vs color” analogy was meant as a continuation of your analogy, but it was apparently not clear as such, so this time I’ll try to be more direct.
Millions of people all over the world, in all cultures religions and cults, and even atheists and skeptics like me, have GOFGE’s. The Hindu word for them is "anubhara". These may include feelings of overwhelming contentment and peace, heavenly voices, ethereal visions, perceived enlightenment, evangelical fervor (of various kinds), senses of forgiveness or approval, sensations of acceptance, flashes of transcendent beauty, feelings of oneness with otherworldly beings and so on and so on. While such experiences can be overwhelming, and even life-changing, that doesn’t mean they have a supernatural connection. The fact that they’ve been induced under experimental conditions points strongly to a physiological source. I think we’re talking endorphins here. To think that GOFGE’s are exclusive to fundamental Baptists, Christians, or even religious people is presumptive in the extreme, especially when you characterize those who haven’t had exactly the same GOFGE’s you’ve had as having “limited capacities”. You may want to rethink the holier-than-thou trip you seem to be on. The only way to distinguish a GOFGE as truly of supernatural origin would be for the GOFGEer to levitate or some such. The usual glossolalia bit doesn’t count because it’s been shown to be gibberish. Anything less and I remain, well, very skeptical. By the way, I do appreciate Brian’s blog and the time he takes on it….and also your comments. And thank you for the compliment. If you say my arguments are “illogically weak” then that means you must think they’re logically strong. If I ever make a logically weak argument, please point it out to me. I always want to do the best I can. A quote from Dawkin’s God Delusion speaks volumes for us skeptics: “Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it?” To simply DISAGREE with Uncle is in NO WAY saying that he is NOT an "altruistic or highly respected individual in his community". You do not need to come to his 'defense' for he is not being attacked! He is being challenged by others who do not agree with his logic or with his viewpoint. Being a student of philosophy who is well read, Brian is in no shortage of viewpoints that are 'outside his comfort zone'..this is what he studies continuously! These ideas are not new or novel to him at all.
I believe UNCLE is lucky to have a nephew who will take time from his very busy schedule to challenge HIM and respond in a thoughtful manner to his posts. In response to the sarcasm (which has no place in true debate by the way) of "Invisible Sky Friends"...have you ever seen electricity with your naked eye? Invisibility does not determine existence or lack thereof. It is logically very weak to imply that "reality" consists only what you can SEE.
Yes, no doubt that the blind have 'enhanced capacities' in some areas...no 'slam' on blind people intended. But, facts being what they are, in spite of their 'enhanced' capacities, I don't think anyone would argue that blindness is preferable to being sighted. Again, facts are that they STILL can not fully grasp the concept you and I know as "color"(regardless of their 'enhancements). It does not 'compute' through the filter of their own reality. Just so, a person who tries to analyze intellectually and 'explain' the invisible realm of the spirit will always and forever be in the dark. Spiritual eyes ('revelation') are missing; it is outside the realm of their comprehension (Romans 9). Now, I will close by saying this: I am no philosopher and I fear I am only clouding this conversation by my murky arguments. So I will bow out in favor of Brian, if he has an interest in continuing this thread or letting it die. Good stuff, Brian. Why did you stop blogging?
Dmitry,
I'd love to blog more, but for now the fact is that I just don't have the time. I used to blog while working, but that was when I had a lot of downtime at work. The nature of my job has changed and now I don't have much downtime. Also, life has gotten crazier: trying to work on my dissertation, two kids, working full-time and serving at church ... you get the picture. For now the extent of my blogging has been arguing with my uncle, and I haven't been able to engage him as much as I would like. I'd like to say I'll blog more in the new year, but I don't see it happening. Thanks for reading, though, and keep up the good work at your blog. I read it all the time. I don't know jack-squat about economics, so I love reading your posts supporting the free market. Hi Brian,
Imagine you're visiting another planet, and there are two debating factions over which religion is correct. Obviously, being from another planet, you have no knowledge of which one is correct, if either. You ask one fellow why he believes in his religion (Religion A). He responds with a few reasons that sound intelligent, but could probably be debated a bit. You also observe that his parents believe in religion A, most of his friends are religion A, and there's a religion A church every few blocks in his neighborhood. The same is true for religion B. The other guy grew up in a B-religious world, but he can still provide reasonable justifications for his religion. How do you know which one is correct? To me, your defenses of Christianity are analagous to religion A. You have freely acknowledged here several times that it is a fact that upbringing strongly affects people's opinions, but you went off in the wrong direction. You started saying "Yes, it's true for religious beliefs, but it's also true for other opinions!" I fully agree with this. What you didn't address is *why your opinion is exempt from this*. You were raised in a Christian world, so you're a Christian. Yes, you can come up with reasons to support it, but so can Muslims raised in Afghanistan. The ability to come up with a justification for something is not the same as your reason for believing in it. The fact is that your upbringing affected your opinion. Why are you still convinced you are correct? What is it that gives Christianity the upper hand in this argument? The only appropriate thing anyone can do is disregard ALL religions as false UNTIL someone can bring forth sufficient reason (evidence) to prove, or at least strongly support, any religion. I'm still waiting for that evidence. Brian, I’ve re-read Dawkins’ Ultimate Boeing 747 argument and your 18-page invective on it several times and while it might be an interesting exercise to comment on the two viewpoints in detail, it would still be just an exercise in philosophical minutiae. I’d rather cut to the core issue and skip all the spidermen and trebuchets and Dr. Frankensteins, etc.
The core view from the Dawkins’ camp is “Why believe in supernatural stuff as an explanatory agent when we don’t need to, especially supernatural stuff that contravenes all common sense, objective observation and experience. We don’t need God or fairies to explain how eyes came about or why wind blows. We have good natural explanations for such things, why invoke demonic forces when your Nissan Pathfinder fails to start? A dead battery is a much more likely cause. Strictly speaking, I suppose it could be a demon, but if I were you, I’d go get some jumper cables or you’ll be late getting to the library and won’t have time for a coke while reading Frederick Copleston—whoever he is. Also, God, as the proponents of the many theistic religions describe him, seems much more like fiction than fact. In the utter absence of substantive evidence it’s very hard to accept a being that can track all the electrons in the universe, answer millions of prayers per second, arrange for supernovae in distant galaxies and still have time to help the Crimson Tide win football games. If you subscribe to the Jehovah version of God, you also have to accept resurrection of dead people, talking snakes and donkeys, a woman turned into sodium chloride, a person who stops the sun “for about a day,” and lots of other really far out stuff. And the other theistic religions make similar heavy demands on common sense reality. I’m only being a little bit facetious when I say that acceptance of Santa Claus or Paul Bunyan or Joseph Smith’s golden tablets would make about as much sense. The view from the Brian camp seems to be best summarized by your two statements on pages 7, 8 and 9. To wit: “the religious believer needs no other justification for his God-beliefs than her [sic] own personal encounter with God” [doesn’t say which god], and “There are literally millions of people on the planet who can point to a similar encounter with God [again, doesn’t say which God] and this gives the theist a good reason to feel justified that her experience with God was veridical.” As near as I can tell, that’s it. (i.e., If you’ve had a God encounter then God exists—in whatever version you encountered Him, I guess.) This seems like a really weak argument for God, especially from a philosophy major. It doesn’t even have any consistent inductive support let alone evidence. People in different cultures have different God encounters. Some God encounters are very destructive; some are directly conflictive of other God encounters. All sorts of different gods are encountered. How can you tell a God encounter from a delusional episode? What role might psychology (state of mind) or physiology (endorphins) play? How valid can god encounters be when they can be induced with drugs or electrodes under laboratory conditions? How valid might they be when some woman in Texas drowns her five kids based on a God encounter she had. There may be such a thing as a genuine God encounter, but it sounds like a fish story and unless someone levitates or does something really unusual during one, I shall remain very very skeptical that they are anything other than delusions. Your only other argument for the existence of God really comes from the bottom of the polemical barrel, i.e., even though there is no evidence for God’s existence, and even though the claims for what he can do far exceed the bounds of sensible experience and observation, and even though the only case for His existence is so-called God encounters (which are virtually indistinguishable from delusions), then just haul off and declare that He’s “necessary”. Frankly, I can’t see where anything is “necessary”. Your example of 2 + 3 = 5 may not be “necessary” in the space-time warp near a black hole, or in the quantam world, or the 7th dimension of string theory, or in an Einsteinian relativistic paradox. Plus it seems to me that what you call “necessary” (forgetting that your example is probably just a tautology) would have been different if the Big Bang had been a zillionth of a degree hotter or the inflationary period had lasted a zillionth of a second longer, or the branes that caused the Big Bang had been a zillionth of a percent larger or more dense. And even if 2 + 3 = 5 is “necessary” somehow, that still doesn’t make God [in any of his many forms] “necessary”. And even if He is “necessary”, that doesn’t have to apply to any of the theistic versions. Along these lines, would you argue that the zodiac is the “necessary” element behind astrology? What the case for God [in whatever form you specify] needs is a “good old-fashioned evidence encounter”. Had any? Has anyone had any? I would like to hear about them. Lastly, are you arguing for God in general or Jehovah in particular? Please define God for me and if it is Jehovah, please define your personal degree of fundamentalism/biblical literalism. And let’s get down to some meat instead of fussing over whether complex things can create things more complex than themselves or whether 2+3=5 is “necessary”. For Uncle Skeptic (one more time)..
Yes, "illogical" was a typo (as if you didn't know!)...did not proof carefully.And, of course, I did not mean to sound 'holier than thou' by referring to MY GOFE as something YOU have not had. That is just plain old fact. My having had an encounter with the living God that irreversibly changed my life in 1966 does not make me better than ANYONE...only a humble recipient of His grace. So, one more entry for you, that sums it up pretty well..for 40 years you have continuously brought this passage to my mind during every useless and pointless argument (which is why it is completely futile to try to 'argue' or rationally 'defend' Christianity to you..here is the quote, never truer: "Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not GOD made FOOLISH the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God the world, through ITS wisdom did not know Him [in other words, God has deliberately made it impossible to find Him through what the world calls 'intelligence' or 'science' or whatever; He has deliberately hidden Himself from that crowd], God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs [as does Uncle Skeptic, via, 'levitating'] and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach CHRIST CRUCIFIED: a STUMBLING BLOCK to Jews and FOOLISHNESS to Gentiles, but to those WHOM GOD HAS CALLED, both Jews, and Greeks, Christ...the Power of God and the Wisdom of God. FOR THE FOOLISHNESS of God is wiser than man's [or Uncle Skeptic's] wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength........GOD CHOSE the FOOLISH things of this world to shame the wise. GOD CHOSE the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He CHOSE the lowly things of this world and the despised things..to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before Him." (I Corinthians 1:20-25,27-29) Jesus referred to this same truth when,in one of the gospels, after his disciples had declared their confidence that he was indeed the Messiah, He looked up to heaven and prayed, "I thank you, Father, that you have CHOSEN to hide these things from the 'wise and intelligent' and reveal them unto little children". GOD CHOOSES....not you, and not me. GOD CHOOSES to make Himself known to who He will. And God has always chosen to reveal himself to the 'lowly ones'..those who humble themselves....the proud and intelligent can only gnash their teeth at us ignorant believers in disgust, while trying their best to rationalize Him away. He reveals Himself to those who come humbly. And yes...the true STUMBLING BLOCK in all of this is 'Christ crucified." Proud people will never admit their need of a Savior for they do not believe they have done anything to warrant such severity. They do not have a concept of the pure Holiness of the Being they have offended, or the seriousness of their pride and independence from their Creator. So, bluster and storm they will, trying to stamp out the light. The only way to freedom and peace, my friend, is the low way. It involves what you told Bill so many years ago you would never do: SURRENDER. The pure WONDER of it all is that, though I owed a debt I could not pay, HE CHOSE to pay it for me and for 'whosoever will." THIS is the offense of the Cross. Very interesting.
The psychologist Thomas Szasz once said that words are actually weapons. His allegorical flourish was two gunslingers about to have a showdown at the OK Corral. They get into a fist fight first. One of them forgets his gun. The other's gun falls to the ground. They both jump and scramble for the gun, knowing that he who gets the gun first wins the fight quickly. Rather, what Dr. Szasz meant was that the LAUNGUAGE we use can serve as weapons. We see this reality every day in personal life and the dreary crud from politics where handouts to those not even working or even citizens, for example, are "tax breaks." Etc. The rich are "evil" incarnate at the very chemical level. People who own guns are chaw-chewing redneck hicks who don't understand basic plumbing and hygiene, much less the magical world of our betters when dissecting economics. The reality is somewhat more nuanced. Dawkins is a prime example of the slaughter of his King's English. His cartoonish understanding of God that would not beguile a small child is more worthy of crayons and coloring books, not books that hit the shelves at Borders or Amazon. In showing why the blog author is correct that Dawkins is up to mischief, and his interlocutors are not correct in their spirited but misunderstood Hail Mary defense, I'd go back to the simple proposition of "facts in themselves", or philosophical insights and/or axioms being one of two things: 1) True---regardless of ultimate source, culture, or tendentiousness, or socio-biological input, culture, etc. 2) False---same parameters. Yes--we are all influenced by something or another. No one denies that. Dawkins is not going to give up and throw in the towel and his (most likely) belief that is shared by most people, in that his defense of advanced secular cultures that can send men to the moon is at least in some way preferable for modern science and hygiene and comfort than those cultures whose main accomplishments are putting bones in their noses. But was Dawkins raised in the latter? No. And even in the day of rank PCism, he'll not back down either, for he, like us, would argue that regardless of any tendentiousness due to his being part of Western society from his days in diapers is only part of his liking and advocacy. The other is the logic that representative government and core freedoms and hierarchical authority is superior to tribal organization. Betcher bottom dollar he'll not back down on that one. In other words, Dawkins and his ilk paint themselves into a rather deterministic corner if they deign to think that THEY--and THEY alone--have the Truth cornered while they merrily critique the world's many other True Believers. This kind of nonsense jibe is common among both atheist and Marxian thought. Either we can stand metaphysically outside our own presumptions about all manner of things--or we can't. If we can, then Dawkins’ assumptions are merely that, and AT that assume that no thinking among the faithful ever goes on regarding the reasonableness of these ideas. Has Dawkins not heard of Peter Kreeft and other theologians who’ve answered about all the stock objections to faith? Yes, Ww are all products of (pick on to your personal flavor of liking) the following on some personal or interpersonal level: Culture, geography, patriarchy (for feminists), economics (the poor and rich have no real facts about economics, and can't understand one another, etc), philosophy, family life, potty training, and even whether or not you are right or left handed and the day you had your first kiss. It goes on and on and on. BUT, either truth is ultimately something that can be held as a proposition for its OWN sake, or it is NOT. It is actually that simple when you boil away the slush and fluff. However, Dawkins and his ilk--like Dennett and the materialists--would have us take the lazy Skepty road and lock the human mind into a metaphysical impossibility where free choice does not even exist--all the while berating faith and religion. YET, in a mechanistic universe where ideas are pre-ordained from various environmental influences, the word "truth" is the weapon of the beholder, not truth per se. It is a blunt sociological instrument of power. Nothing more. |
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